Océane (@oceane)

@mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io

2y

🤔 Fascists love Star Wars. Even though the whole point of Star Wars is that fascists suck, and that the universe would be better without them.

🤔 Billionaires love Star Trek. Even though the whole point of Star Trek is that billionaires suck, and that the universe would be better off without them, and that once we get universal basic income and solve SF homelessness, and end the very concept of billionaire, humanity will usher in a real age of technological advancement.

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Rob Ricci @ricci@discuss.systems

2y

@mekkaokereke Lindsay Ellis did a great video essay about Mel Brooks, and the part that has stuck with me was her discussion of American History X and The Producers. Both are anti Nazi movies, but Nazis love American History X because it makes them look cool and dangerous. Nobody plays "Springtime For Hitler" at their Nazi rallies because it would just make them look silly, there's no way to transmute it into "dangerous"

[edit: since some people are boosting this, I better link the video www.youtube.com/watch?v=62cPPSyoQkE ]

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mekka okereke

@mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io

2y

@ricci

American History X is a terrible film if its objective is to speak against racism. If I were a young white man and I watched American History X, and I believed its portrayals of Black folk? I'd feel more justified in my racism.

Black people murdered his dad, a hard working fireman. Then tried to steal his stuff. Then murdered his brother in school. But we're not supposed to be racist because it's wrong. We're not supposed to be strong in a cruel world. That messaging doesn't work.

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mekka okereke

@mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io

2y

@ricci

The reality is that the portrayals of Black people in that movie were trash.

The total number of times in US history that a Black student has shown up to a school with a gun and shot a white student, are astronomically low. That's not a thing that happens. It's a thing that racist 2A gun nuts pretend happens.

The portrayal of Black people as violent, stupid, or hapless, is a big problem.

I hated that movie, and was not surprised that it recruited more nazis.

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Billiglarper @billiglarper@rollenspiel.social

2y

@mekkaokereke @ricci

Thanks for your perspective, even though I disagree.

The general point of contention seems to be how relatable the bad guy and his motivation should be. In the end that probably comes down to how much you trust the viewer.

It's tempting to present fascists as clowns or monsters. Which they quite often are. And as a tool to fight them, this ostracism is imho needed in society.

But it doesn't help with understanding fascism and it's draw on people.

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mekka okereke

@mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io

2y

@billiglarper @ricci

Fascinating: my critique is 100% around the portrayal of Black people in the movie. I didn't even mention the portrayal of Edward Norton or any other white character, other than to say that his motivations were relatable given the false and disparaging depiction of Black folk in the movie. My take centered Black folk.

But you read it as how relatable Edward Norton's character should be, and if he should be relatable, or clownish or a monsters. Your take centered him.

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mekka okereke

@mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io

2y

@billiglarper @ricci

To agree or disagree with my take, you would need to say something about the depiction of Black people in the movie. Like either:

A) I think the depictions of Black people in the movie were fine

Or

B) I understand why a lot of Black people, especially those that have lived in Southern California and experienced LA racism first hand 🙋🏿‍♂️, had a huge problem with the movie.

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Billiglarper @billiglarper@rollenspiel.social

2y

@mekkaokereke @ricci

I think I get why you are not ok with a movie where all Black characters are criminals, often violent ones. Yes, it's a racist cliché.

Personally, I think that's ok in the context of this movie. But that's easy to say for someone who's life is not negatively affected by this movie.

What I disagree with is your perception of the messaging. Imho it's not "Don't be strong in a cruel world, just be nice"

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Rob Ricci @ricci@discuss.systems

2y

@billiglarper @mekkaokereke

Yes, it's a racist cliché. ... Personally, I think that's ok in the context of this movie.

Hard disagree from me on this point. If your story, which is ostensibly based on the motivations and personal development of real-ish people, bases itself on events that are very much not real-ish, that is not really great storytelling.

Clichés can absolutely be useful in storytelling but their main purpose is to put the audience into a story/world they are familiar with - so hey maybe clichés that place the viewer into a counterfactual world in which Black folks are violent predators is not just a storytelling convenience, it's a thing that causes damage in the real world.

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mekka okereke

@mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io

2y

@ricci @billiglarper

Yep. @ricci nails this perfectly.

Which is why we see a few things:

1) Black people that work to reduce racism in the real world in the US, really dislike this movie.

2) Nazis that do the US racism, feel that this movie helps them recruit.

3) White people that don't know how to reduce racism, remain convinced that this movie reduces racism. Because they don't listen to the Black people in "1," and remain absolutely convinced that they know best how to reduce racism.

🤷🏿‍♂️

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Océane @oceane@peculiar.florist

2y

@mekkaokereke @ricci @billiglarper I think it's cool to lie for the sake of NVC and giving privileged people the space to do their own research. But the person who's shown me this movie, which honestly shocked me as I was 13 years old, was a school bully. He was sadistic, fascinated by violence, and not, overall, a good person.

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Océane @oceane@peculiar.florist

2y

@mekkaokereke @ricci @billiglarper So I don't disagree with storytelling clichés if they actually empower people, but these ones were absolutely awful.

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Océane @oceane@peculiar.florist

2y

@mekkaokereke @ricci @billiglarper (Just repeating what mekka said.)

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