Océane (@oceane)

Large Heydon Collider @heydon@front-end.social

2y

It doesn't matter what ARIA Authoring Practices says. If you implement patterns that suppress tab interaction in favour of binding arrow keys (for tabs, menus, etc) your users will be confused and blocked.

There are two ways you can make websites less accessible with ARIA:

1. Using ARIA incorrectly
2. Using ARIA correctly

EDIT: I'm speaking in the general case, and in defense of casual users. In short: don't use tabs etc when you can use simpler patterns like same-page links.

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Jamie Teh @jcsteh@aus.social

2y

@heydon The flip side of that is that having an interface where you literally tab through everything is a horribly inefficient experience which some of your users who depend entirely on the keyboard will also hate. At some point, one has to ask why you're using a keyboard at all if all you do is tab.

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Jamie Teh @jcsteh@aus.social

2y

@heydon I mean, why bother with semantics at all if everything is basically just a button?

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Large Heydon Collider @heydon@front-end.social

2y

@jcsteh Not everything is a button in my interfaces?

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Jamie Teh @jcsteh@aus.social

2y

@heydon If everything should be tabbable, no arrow keys, etc., it may as well just be a button or a link, or maybe a checkbox if you're lucky. Tab panels, list boxes, trees, radio buttons, etc. all use arrow keys for efficiency.

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Large Heydon Collider @heydon@front-end.social

2y

@jcsteh arrow keys are expected for radio buttons; tab interfaces (and other ARIA patterns) are very unfamiliar to users I've tested with

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Marco Zehe @Marco@tech.lgbt

2y

@heydon @jcsteh I guess some of these patterns might need to be re-thought at some point. Truth is that with as many different UI frameworks available for Windows, the classic MFC based Win32 controls that these ARIA authoring practices are mostly based on, are hardly ever used any more in many Windows applications nowadays. With the revamp of File Explorer and System Settings, and all other apps getting Ribbons, these classic dialog concepts like tabs and tab panels are less frequent. Some Linux desktops and most AppKit based apps on MacOS still have similar concepts, but most iOS/Mac Catalyst apps don’t. So yeah, especially many younger people probably don’t know these concepts as much as we older folks. But I agree with Jamie, many ARIA concepts are easily solved with either details/summary accordeon principles, or same page links, and usually don’t even require complex widgets. Complex apps like Google Drive etc. not withstanding.

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Jamie Teh @jcsteh@aus.social

2y

@Marco Sure, for the average document, having your navigation menus structured as a menu bar doesn't make much sense. But if it's structured as a tabbed interface for mouse users, I don't see why keyboard users should have to tab, tab, tab, tab, tab to get anything done. And imagine trying to navigate the Google Docs menu structure with the tab key. @heydon

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Marco Zehe @Marco@tech.lgbt

2y

@jcsteh @heydon I totally agree with these complex apps. I do, however, also see these patterns applied to fairly simple pages where it is absolutely not necessary. And yes, keyboard users deserve more efficient ways of navigating, and that the tab key isn’t required to go to every tab control in a tab group, or every element in a toolbar container. But training these concepts will get harder as fewer regular desktop apps especially on Windows even use these paradigms.

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Marco Zehe @Marco@tech.lgbt

2y

@jcsteh @heydon Think about how few applications on Windows even still have a traditional menu bar. And that the Mac is probably the only operating system even still enforcing this UI element in both Catalyst apps, as well as Microsoft products that on other systems and on the web only have their ribbon concept. Yes, Word on the Mac still has a traditional menu bar system.

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Océane @oceane@peculiar.florist

2y

@Marco @jcsteh @heydon I agree with you, I'd like to point you to a WIP free macOS alternative based on FreeBSD: github.com/hellosystem/hello

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